Welcome to the latest episode of the Real Men Eat Plants podcast! In this episode, Bryan engages in a profound discussion on the compassionate aspects of veganism with three influential guests: Paul Chatlin, founder of the Plant-Based Nutrition Support Group (PBNSG); Jonathan Balcombe, scientist and author; and Maggie Herskowitz, a dedicated storyteller and scientist. The conversation dives deep into the ethical, environmental, and health-related dimensions of veganism.
Paul Chatlin opens the discussion by sharing his journey into plant-based nutrition. His organization, PBNSG, stands as the largest support group globally for individuals embracing lifestyle changes through a plant-based diet. Paul’s advocacy roots stem from his love for his late dog, Sophie, and his belief in the interconnectedness of human health, animal compassion, and planetary well-being. As Paul eloquently puts it,
"If you get the humans right, the animals and the planet have a chance."
Jonathan Balcombe brings a scientific perspective to the table, highlighting his work in ethology, the study of animal behavior. He underscores the empathy gap many people have toward animals that do not resemble humans, such as fish and octopuses. Jonathan's research and books, like "What a Fish Knows," aim to bridge this gap by showcasing the complex inner lives of these often-overlooked creatures. He emphasizes,
"If you love animals, don't eat them. It’s the best thing one can do for the environment, ethics, and personal health."
Maggie Herskowitz adds a passionate voice, merging her writing and performance skills with her commitment to animal advocacy. She shares a powerful anecdote from her childhood: at just two years old, she decided never to eat animals again after learning that the chicken on her plate was once a living creature. Maggie highlights the cognitive dissonance many people experience, loving pets while consuming other animals. She poignantly states,
"The question is not can they reason, nor can they talk, but can they suffer?"
Throughout the episode, the guests explore the environmental benefits of a plant-based diet, noting the inefficiencies and ethical concerns of animal agriculture. Jonathan cites staggering statistics: animal agriculture occupies 83% of the world's farmland yet produces only 18% of the calories. By shifting to a plant-based diet, individuals can significantly reduce their environmental footprint.
Hot Takeaways and Lessons:
Interconnected Advocacy: Paul Chatlin emphasizes the intertwined nature of human health, animal welfare, and environmental sustainability, advocating for a holistic approach to advocacy.
Scientific Insights: Jonathan Balcombe highlights the sophisticated behaviors and emotional lives of animals, urging for greater empathy and ethical considerations in our interactions with them.
Early Influences: Maggie Herskowitz shares her journey from childhood vegetarianism to veganism, showcasing how early education and personal experiences shape our ethical perspectives.
Health Benefits: The discussion reinforces the scientifically proven health benefits of a plant-based diet, from reducing chronic diseases to promoting overall well-being.
Environmental Impact: The guests discuss the significant environmental benefits of veganism, from reducing greenhouse gas emissions to conserving natural resources, highlighting the inefficiencies of animal agriculture.
In summary, this episode of Real Men Eat Plants offers a comprehensive look into how veganism extends beyond diet to encompass a compassionate and sustainable lifestyle. By embracing plant-based living, we can improve our health, reduce animal suffering, and protect the planet.
Vegan Recipe:
Maggie's Compassionate Ratatouille
1 eggplant, diced
2 zucchinis, sliced
1 red bell pepper, chopped
1 yellow bell pepper, chopped
4 tomatoes, diced
1 onion, chopped
3 cloves garlic, minced
2 tbsp olive oil
Salt and pepper to taste
Fresh basil for garnish
Instructions:
Preheat oven to 375°F (190°C).
In a large baking dish, combine all vegetables, garlic, and olive oil. Season with salt and pepper.
Bake for 45 minutes, stirring occasionally, until vegetables are tender.
Garnish with fresh basil and serve warm.
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Episode’s Transcript
Please understand that a transcription service provided the transcript below. It undoubtedly contains errors that invariably take place in voice transcriptions.
Bryan (00:02.757)
Hello everybody and welcome to the Real Men Eat Plants podcast. Today we are going to dive deep into the heart of veganism, not just as a diet, but as a compassionate lifestyle. I'm your host Brian and joining us today are distinguished guests who have led the charge in many aspects of animal advocacy. Let's meet some of our passionate panelists who will help us explore the various facets of animal rights and advocacy.
So Maggie, do you want to kick us off? Maggie Herskowitz.
Maggie Herskowitz (00:33.28)
Sure. Hi, I'm Maggie. I make my living as a writer, but I am very passionate about animal rights and animal welfare. This past year, I finished my Masters of Science in International Animal Welfare Ethics and Law from the University of Edinburgh's Veterinary School. Thank you. And...
And yeah, I've been a vegetarian since I was two years old, which is a decision I came to independently of my parents. And then I've been vegan for the last several years. And yeah, love animals, love talking to people about animals. And lately I've been trying to kind of merge the writing and performance aspects of my life with my passion for animals to do some science communication. So yeah.
Bryan (01:28.901)
I love it. Thanks for being here, Maggie. And then I met, I met Jonathan Balcom a couple, it feels like a couple days ago, Jonathan, but maybe it was last week sometime, but it all blurs together on one of my other podcasts, Plant Based on Fire. So check that one out. But Jonathan has got a great story and a PhD in ethology as well. But introduce yourself, Jonathan.
Maggie Herskowitz (01:30.655)
Thanks for having me.
Jonathan Balcombe (01:55.251)
Sure, thanks, Brian. Yeah, PhD in Ethology, which is the study of animal behavior. I've loved animals since I was born. I can't claim to have been vegetarian quite as young as Maggie. That's impressive. But because of my age, I can say that I became vegetarian in 1984 and vegan in 1989. And after graduating with my PhD, I went to work for...
people for the Ethical Treatment of Animals and then worked for the Humane Society of the U .S. and Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, pro -animal groups in various ways. And now I've sort of phased that part of my career out and I mostly focus on writing books such as What a Fish Knows, all about the lives of fishes. I focus on, I try to leverage the science into greater understanding and appreciation for the non -scientist reader.
And my ultimate goal is of course to improve the human animal relationship and certainly influencing food choices is high on the list of goals with that.
Bryan (03:01.509)
I love it. Thank you, Jonathan, for being here. We really appreciate that. And I wanted to say, last but not least is Mr. Paul Chatlin. We'll let him introduce yourself, but I want to kick off the first question with you too, as well, Paul. Sort of what ignited some of your animal advocacy passions and what do you think some of the common misconceptions people have about that side of it?
paul chatlin (03:25.102)
Let me introduce myself first so people know who I am and then I'll try and answer your interesting question. I'll start with this. Okay, so my name is Paul Chatlin and I am the founder of the Plant -Based Nutrition Support Group. We are the largest and only support group in the world supporting people with lifestyle change.
Maggie Herskowitz (03:35.743)
Aww.
paul chatlin (03:53.402)
I am also the co -founder of the Sage Circle Alliance and Maggie, Jonathan, it's wonderful to meet you. This is a place for you to check out. I'm not here to sell. I'm here to talk about animals, but we're going to have a book section just for authors. And the main thrust of the Sage Circle Alliance is human health, animal compassion, and planetary awareness. If you ask me the question, why am I doing this now? It's because I always wanted to do it.
Maggie Herskowitz (04:15.52)
Mm.
paul chatlin (04:23.002)
I always wanted to add animal compassion and planet awareness on the plant -based nutrition support group platform 12 years ago when I started. I am whole food plant -based, no oil for health reasons and now choice and health reasons. But I thought it was at that point more important we stay in the lane of human health because if you get the humans right, the animals and the planet have a chance. We are far from getting humans right.
So Brian, going back to your question, what made me get, why, why this? Well, for me, first of all, I had a tremendous love affair of my dog, Sophie, who after 18 years passed away a year ago. And as I have said publicly, so I could say this to you guys, I always reminded my wife not to make me choose between her or the dog.
because she would be disappointed. I never felt more love than I did from Sophie and her passing. People always ask, you know, when you lose a dog, hey, when you get another one? Well, I'm going to give it some time because I still come to the house and don't see her in my window every day. So I have a love affair of animals. I you could quote me on this. I find it hilarious that people love their animals. They love their dog. They love their cats. But if.
if the world was different and they had pet sheep or pet frogs or pet something else and they ate dogs and cats, they wouldn't love their dogs and cats. I don't get, and maybe Jonathan and Maggie, you could help educate me, but I don't understand how you could love your dog and then eat a cow or eat a lamb or eat something else. I go as far as saying, you know how you're at a place and you're inside and you see,
a spider and you see somebody stamp on that spider, step on it. It kind of takes me back to when I was a kid and a bunch of the guys would take that magnifying glass and start killing off all the ants. And I could swear at some of them are in jail today or dead. I don't know where they are because that tells you something about where their headsets at. So I'm very passionate about animal abuse. And I just think that.
Maggie Herskowitz (06:34.992)
Yeah
paul chatlin (06:48.122)
I may never understand how people could treat animals so poorly and yet love their dogs and cats. So that's a little bit of the reason why I am involved with animal compassion. And I think there was a two -part question, but I'll pass on that. You can shut me down right now.
Bryan (07:07.141)
No, great intro, Paul, and we appreciate you expanding on that. I'm just curious just to help set the stage for other questions as we go, but Jonathan, what sort of ignited your passion for this path and what were the misconceptions that you think people have about our cause today?
Jonathan Balcombe (07:26.003)
Yeah, I mean, I hear what you're saying, Paul. Some people just seem to lack empathy, but I do think a lot of that is learned from what they, the modeling behavior from adults when they're kids, taken out fishing, taken out hunting and this sort of thing, even trapping. Fortunately, my parents were very nurturing and they cultivated an interest and love for animals. But I have to say, I've met a lot of people over the years who used to hunt, used to trap.
used to do things that you look at as like how can one even begin to think of doing that, the unthinkable? Where is their empathy? Where is their compassion? Where is their ability to connect our experience of the world, our capacity for pain and heartache with another creature, a being who clearly has the senses and has the awareness? And yet those people have forsaken those old practices and become vegan and become animal lovers. So it's...
Bryan (08:03.493)
Thank you.
Jonathan Balcombe (08:19.027)
It's remarkable to me that someone can have such a switch, but it's also very encouraging.
Bryan (08:25.285)
I love it. Well said, Jonathan. Maggie, some of your thoughts on that?
Maggie Herskowitz (08:28.288)
Yeah, I mean to answer the, you know, where did it start for me, I'll go a little into a little bit more detailed my origin story, which is always loved animals. My parents had a cat who, you know, showed up via the cat distribution system three years before I was born. So I was, you know, raised with the cat and raised to be nice to animals. And when I was two, you know, my mom called me for dinner and said, you know, it was chicken. And I said, you know,
something along the lines, but with a two -year -old vocabulary of it's funny that chicken has the same name as the animal. And she said, well, it is the animal. This is a dead chicken.
I was like, you killed a chicken? She's like, no, I didn't kill it. I was like, don't you ever feed me an animal again. And they were very respectful and they didn't. I also, they got me a pet when I was four that they didn't realize I was going to get weird and make it my whole personality. This is a rat. Rats are the best things on the planet. As you can see, he's just my squishy little best friend. I have a whole bunch. You should always have multiple rats, but,
Yeah, rats are not covered by the Animal Welfare Act in America, so literally you can do anything to them, and that's so not cool. And they are truly, they're the best little friends. They are so intelligent. They are so compassionate. And people are, they're a perfect example of an animal that people are socialized to have no empathy or respect for. But I also have a dog.
on my bed back there, as you can see. But he, you know, they are as smart, as affectionate, as loving as he is. I made a video, one of my little videos is called, Should You Kill John Wick's Dog? And it's a humorous guide to the five basic philosophies in animal ethics.
Maggie Herskowitz (10:34.592)
And to kind of speak to what you were saying Paul there are certain views of ethics including the relational view that basically says we only owe animals in in relation to who they are to us
So like we have an ethical responsibility to animals under our direct care, but we don't owe anything to animals outside of that. And animals that have relationships with humans are special and the rest aren't. And it's not a philosophy I'll ever fully be able to understand, but yeah, it's interesting the way that people can...
compartmentalize, and I think a lot of people who...
Identify themselves as animal lovers can be particularly defensive about their dietary dietary choices being Acceptable and justified and I know also a lot of people will say, you know Well, you know, I love animals and I eat them and you know animals eat other animals and it's okay and it's like yes, but Animals eating other animals don't have other options and they are also not sourcing their food through the absolute horrors of
both for the individuals and for the environment that is intensive or factory farming. Like the difference between a...
Maggie Herskowitz (12:03.104)
Lion eating a zebra out in the wild versus us, you know eating Chicken nuggets or steak or whatever that has come from animals who are living in Spaces sometimes so small that they can't even turn around I don't know if you guys have been following the legislation with the pigs in California where people keep being like I don't know. I think it's too extreme to say that pigs should be allowed to you know, make a circle it's just
It's it's not comparable and I think people who say that it is are either arguing in bad faith or intentionally pulling the proverbial here's an alternate rat now Stella just climbed into my lap but pulling the proverbial wool over their eyes to just say no no no this is the natural order of things when there is nothing even close to natural about intensive farming and also Paul in terms of what you were saying about human health as well right now.
Now we're seeing the bird flu that is affecting dairy cattle, which in turn poses a risk to humans drinking cow milk. And it is all related and we will continue to see pandemics that are these zoonotic diseases passing from non -human animals to human animals for as long as we take thousands and thousands of animals and cram them into small artificially created spaces.
paul chatlin (13:15.094)
you
paul chatlin (13:32.602)
You know, if I could, I'd like to just jump in with a thought, which is when I said that we got to get the humans right first, I am, I so mean that, and I'll give you an example. So today, you know, the question is, you know, like organic or not organic foods, but generally speaking, they plant, when we use corn as an example, so they put corn in the ground and then they put,
Maggie Herskowitz (13:56.8)
Mm -hmm.
paul chatlin (14:02.458)
stuff to make the corn become much bigger, not like four or six ears on a stalk, but 12 to 16. So it's a higher yield. So clearly they're doing something to that corn. They take that corn and they hand it over to the cows, pigs and the animals to feed. But now the pig, I don't know what you call a super sized pig, but now these pigs are like twice the size. I think they're called hippopotamids pigs or something like that.
Maggie Herskowitz (14:26.816)
Mm -hmm.
Haha
paul chatlin (14:32.922)
The fact is that they make, they put steroids in them to make them bigger for a higher yield. So they got the corn on it for a higher yield. You got the pigs for a higher yield. And then they put it all together and they give you that slice of ham. And what are you really ingesting? Now, the human body is a beautiful thing. You could handle a slice of ham. You could handle it once a week for X amount of time, but it always catches up. It always catches up.
Maggie Herskowitz (14:56.607)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
paul chatlin (15:01.594)
And see, that's where, you know, it just my opinion is that's why I'm a main thrust person into human health. Not because I love it, but because that's the only way we're going to have a chance at changing the narrative with animal compassion. And what scares me the very most is when it comes to this planet, the only planet we have, what is it going to take? Some absolute calamity for the world to say, let's take a break on all this.
Maggie Herskowitz (15:17.439)
Mm -hmm.
paul chatlin (15:30.586)
pollution and all this all this bad stuff because you know something just Horrific happened and I don't I personally I don't want that to happen But I think that's what it might take so
Maggie Herskowitz (15:42.688)
I think it's also important to, you know, when you're talking about these super -sized pigs.
It's, I'm so sorry, what rat ran across my keyboard. The third one. I think it's also important to talk about the genetics of animals, not just the genetics of the crops that they're eating, because the way that we're breeding animals right now is also causing them to grow very quickly. And so for example, broiler chickens are often bred to be so large, so fast that their legs break under them.
And it's horrific, but I remember my the head of the International Animal Welfare Ethics and Law Department at Edinburgh had a flock of broiler chickens in her yard that she had adopted at the end of an experiment and they were just these huge beefy chickens, but Yeah, it's it's what what we have done in terms of breeding for specific phenotypes in animals whether it's for food purposes or even just for
is so unnatural and often causes worse health issues and greater suffering for them than we're even aware of, which is another reason why it's just disingenuous to compare it to animals hunting in the wild. But I think animal lovers also really need to be aware of that. This is slightly...
off from food, but with dog breeds as well. Since we're on the topic, if there are people listening who are already like, I'm vegan, I don't eat animals, but boy do I love my pugs or my frenchies or my dachshunds or whatever. And it's like, we don't even realize, because we are so desensitized to the way that we've bred dogs for a certain aesthetic, but we are setting them up for just such lifetimes of pain. And it's such a -
Maggie Herskowitz (17:39.458)
a bummer seems like to, not extreme enough a word, but it is a bummer. And also, again, speaking to both the idea of animals becoming a naturally giant and also...
the bonds between people and animals changing their view of that. I think of the story of Esther the Wonder Pig, which you guys may well be familiar with, but it's these guys who bought what they thought was going to be a cute little teacup pig for a pet. And then she grew to be over 600 pounds and this hugely valuable member of their family. And they went, wait, if this one pig is a loving, feeling, thinking individual and
and she was just some, you know, pork pig, then that means all pigs in pork productions are also thinking, feeling, loving individuals, and it inspired them to go vegan and to also, you know, spread the word of veganism. But I think...
people really struggle to scale up and it is such a massive scale. So the idea of looking at one animal and going, wow, I have a bond with you. And that means the millions and millions and millions and millions of animals being killed for food also have that same level of thought and feeling and emotion. I think people block that out because it's so overwhelming to try to take in that reality.
Bryan (19:15.749)
I agree completely. I mean, I just want to recap a couple of things I wrote down as you were all talking. It's like, I love how you said cow's milk. I feel like we've changed the narrative by just showcasing that there are many kinds of milk out there now. You know, we look at pecan milk or cashew milk or something like that now. And, you know, so I love the fact that we've not switched away from when I know I was growing up. We just called it milk and we all assumed it was cow's milk.
Maggie Herskowitz (19:28.352)
Mm -hmm.
paul chatlin (19:42.81)
you
Bryan (19:43.909)
so I love that angle. I loved how we also were talking about, you know, I guess I equated it in my head of we're identifying with the animals because they're similar to us. You know, even the rat is a mammal, et cetera, et cetera. But I do think we struggle with the ones that don't look like us, like the fish or the octopus or those. And those ones have even, even worse things happening to them. And I did try to prepare a little bit.
Maggie Herskowitz (19:55.392)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
Bryan (20:11.621)
you know, a bunch of questions. I don't know if we'll get through all of them today on this debate, because it's such a great conversation that's already happening. But I did watch Dominion in preparation for this. So if you haven't seen Dominion and you're watching this episode, go and watch that. It's a little bit shocking of a movie kind of thing. But like just the inner stick, like they do a section on turkeys and then a section on pigs and then a section all on just broiler chickens and then other kinds. But like.
The thing for me that I didn't even, I think I had watched it a long time ago and probably forgot, but the thing for me that really stuck out is not just that we're genetically breeding the chickens and the broiler chickens that they can barely walk, but also the fact that probably, I don't know what the percentage is, but 50 % of them are born men, men, chickens, roosters, and they just kill them straight away. I mean, as soon as they're born, they're just destroyed. So we're already just, I don't know, just.
Maggie Herskowitz (20:58.752)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yep.
Bryan (21:07.653)
But to really look at the value chain of where our food comes from, from start to finish is something that I wish they taught a lot more of in school. So at least you'd be aware of it and then you could go into it and figure that out. But I want to turn it back over to Jonathan and let him get in a little bit of an answer to a question here. So I want to, I think we talked about this briefly on the other podcast, Jonathan, if you don't mind expanding on it again, but like take it to that bigger level of.
Advocating for animals aligns with a broader ethical consideration about what is life and what is respect for the life that we have. So I think we touched on that a little bit and I know you certainly have in some of your books.
Jonathan Balcombe (21:49.619)
I don't remember what we actually said about that, but certainly advocating for animals is an act of empathy and it's something that needs to be done. Just some numbers that come to mind. Something I shared with you the other day, Brian, is the breakdown of ratios between humans, livestock, and wild animals. Excuse me, got a tickly throat. I do have water behind me. I'll run and get some if I have to. This was shocking when I read this. Thank you, Paul. I appreciate that.
Bryan (21:52.261)
Hehehe.
Jonathan Balcombe (22:19.603)
100 ,000 years ago, humans or hominids made up about less than half of a percent of all the vertebrate animals on the earth. And today we make up 36%. And the next 60 % is livestock, the animals we raise to kill and eat. And Maggie mentioned the horrendous conditions that animals are mostly kept in in factory farms.
close confinement, short lives, stressful trips to the slaughterhouse and then the slaughterhouse itself. And then the remaining, if you do the math, that leaves 4%, which is just the biomass of vertebrates on land of wildlife. So we've, and those numbers to me say two things. There's too many people, and I don't want to sound anti -human here. I'm not suggesting we start bumping humans off, but we could get a hold, control of our reproductive rates.
And so there's too many people and we're eating too many animals. 60 % of that total with livestock, animals specifically bred to eat. Chickens on the planet today outweigh wild birds, about three to one. And it shocked me to read that. I practically cried when I read those numbers. So.
That's another way of putting it in. But you know, people are not that affected by statistics. They like stories. So it's important that we focus on stories. Maggie, showing your rats is a very powerful thing to do. And by the way, I grew up having pet rats too, and I've had them. They are fantastic. And I can speak to the science. I mean, rats have been shown in scholarly peer review published articles.
Maggie Herskowitz (23:51.456)
The best.
Jonathan Balcombe (24:01.491)
to, for instance, rescue another rat. If the second rat is in a glass tube and can't get out, the rat on the outside could go and eat chocolate, but it would rather rescue the other rat first before eating chocolate. If they put a toy rat in there or some other object, the rat recognizes that this thing doesn't need rescuing and goes straight to the chocolate. But they're highly social, they're compassionate, they're considerate of others.
Maggie Herskowitz (24:03.104)
Mm -hmm.
Maggie Herskowitz (24:11.616)
Yeah.
Jonathan Balcombe (24:28.434)
And isn't it ironic that we have such, so many people have such a negative reaction against these animals and all they need to do is meet them and see how wonderful they are.
Maggie Herskowitz (24:33.28)
Yeah.
paul chatlin (24:39.034)
It's never good when you can call somebody a rat and it's not a good thing to say, right?
Maggie Herskowitz (24:41.856)
There's a running joke in my household where whenever someone will say something about like, you know, I don't want to rat someone out. I'll be like, watch your language, please, like around me and my children. But I do want to, because after I said the thing about like, you know, that livestock are just as capable as thought and love and compassion as any of our animals, I realized I kind of left myself open.
Bryan (24:53.829)
Heheheheh
Maggie Herskowitz (25:10.848)
to debate and to counterpoint there. Because of course all different species of animals have different cognitive abilities, have different range of emotions. And you spoke to that a little bit with how much easier it is to conjure empathy for animals who are closer to us as opposed to animals like octopodes who are incredibly intelligent and incredibly physically sensitive. They have so many nerve endings. And I wanted to say there's a great quote,
from Jeremy Bentham and I wanted to look it up so I could quote it exactly. And he said, when it came to animals, the question is not can they reason, nor can they talk, but can they suffer? And so I wanted to throw that in there for anyone who wanted to go, well, chickens, other chickens can be very affectionate, but you know, well, fish or you know, chickens, whatever, they don't think the way my dog does. Yes, but they suffer.
And that is the bottom line, is we want to prevent suffering.
Jonathan Balcombe (26:15.155)
And they think in their own ways, that's very sophisticated. Sorry, Paul. But they, chickens, for instance, have alarm calls for different sized aerial predators, large ones, medium sized, small ones, and they have appropriate responses to them all. And roosters also will make a call to offer food to hens. And they'll only make this call if there's hens nearby. And he finds a cricket or a grou -
paul chatlin (26:15.226)
Let me, if I could, I...
No, no, Jonathan, please.
Maggie Herskowitz (26:23.808)
Mm -hmm.
Jonathan Balcombe (26:44.339)
grasshopper because they are omnivorous birds, calls her over and he'll give it to her. Now sometimes he'll fake it. There's nothing there. She'll come running and well, grasshoppers can jump away. So it may be a way of he's buying credit on the slide, something that I think humans can relate to. So it's Machiavellian. They're complicated and sometimes deceive each other, but that speaks to their minds and their intelligence. Sorry, Paul, go ahead. You wanted to contribute.
Bryan (26:57.221)
Hehehehe.
Maggie Herskowitz (27:03.04)
Sure.
paul chatlin (27:10.426)
No, no, no. You know, here's the thing. It's funny because, you know, it's like you two, Jonathan and Maggie are into an area that Brian had said before we even started that the Sage Circle Alliance needs to dive way deeper into. Now, the Sage Circle Alliance is made up mostly of human healers, some educators. Whereas even though we have Will Tuttle with us, who everyone...
should know or does know. This is something that we need to as an organization dive into it. But I guess my question is this. So you guys are both animal advocates of different levels and abilities. I get that. But the question is, you know, like we've been advocating more animal compassion for every moment of every day for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 forever. And yet,
We haven't moved the bar a whole lot. You know what I'm saying? We haven't. On human health, it's scientifically proven you go plant -based, you're going to be healthier. But we haven't moved that needle a whole lot. And my goodness, you know, you could have an argument that we're just going through a planetary cycle, or you could go to the ocean and look at all the plastic, look at all the stuff that's going on that's bad, or the horrific hurricane and all that stuff. And we still haven't moved the bar a whole lot. So...
what I came to realize is we need animal advocacy and planetary awareness people to be part of what my, you know, I kind of call it my last hurrah, but I mean, my big push on creating a voice because individually I'm listening to Maggie and Jonathan going, man, I didn't just met you, but I want to listen to you, especially Maggie with the rats. That's pretty cool. Okay. I mean,
Bryan (29:05.541)
I have to point out, Paul, like I've spoken to a few people in the alternative protein markets and stuff, and they point out that we have had some impact, but it's only at the benefit of humans, right? Like we invented the ballpoint pen and then we stopped torturing ducks for their feathers to write with. We invented the car and we stopped torturing horses as much. I mean, I still think that goes on in certain countries, but you know what? Yeah, I mean, yeah. That's right.
paul chatlin (29:28.602)
Great.
Maggie Herskowitz (29:28.864)
And also cars, don't get me started on cars.
paul chatlin (29:31.386)
Hey, we could one off this or one off that, but at the end of the day, like all four of us here, all of us here want to make a difference and see a difference. Now I'm accepting the fact that my life is going to be building a foundation. That's it. I'm not going to see that promised land. It's not going to happen. But the fact is, is that I guess I wonder all the time, how do we get more animal advocacy people to join in? And I'm not.
Bryan (29:38.917)
It's gotten worse, for sure.
paul chatlin (30:01.274)
Again, I'm not pushing the SCA. We've got a different agenda today. But this is exactly my bitch. Harry, I could say that on live podcast. Is that let's hold the people back from all working together because you don't hear a peep from the dairy association ever. Why? They're all making huge amounts of money. You never see headlines that they're infighting or complaining or problems. Never. The meatpacking association. Never a word from any of them.
Bryan (30:09.701)
Hehehehe
Jonathan Balcombe (30:28.691)
Mm -hmm.
paul chatlin (30:31.738)
We need a voice.
Bryan (30:31.813)
Well, I think that raises it. I want to try and pivot into the second big topic and theme, and we can try and address Paul's question with this answer a little bit too, is how does protecting animal rights contribute to helping the environment? I mean, all three of these things are linked together. We know we stop eating animals, our health will get better, the planet will get better, it'll be less suffering for the animals. But what do you each think is the right way to tackle animal rights?
Jonathan Balcombe (30:34.739)
Thank you.
Maggie Herskowitz (30:47.996)
Mm.
Bryan (31:01.381)
protections and contributing to that cause will impact the environment.
Maggie Herskowitz (31:06.848)
Yeah, I also, I have a lot of things to say all the time. You have my consent to cut me off. If I'm going on too long, you can just be like, my turn. So I think I am, I think somewhat of a radical in my space in that I am not quite a radical.
Bryan (31:16.709)
You're doing great, Maggie. I certainly will. Yeah.
Maggie Herskowitz (31:31.68)
So there is, Paul, when you talk about infighting, so my degree is in animal welfare science, but I also strongly believe in animal rights. And for those not in the know, that sounds like you're saying, okay, you're a baker, but you also bake bread. Like that's the same thing. But animal welfare to me, it comes up short in a lot of ways, but it is also something that is...
scientifically grounded, there is a metric, and you can see that needle being pushed.
paul chatlin (32:02.746)
Yeah.
Maggie Herskowitz (32:06.272)
And what I would love to see, I jokingly call my sister my carnist counsel. Like I'll show her some of my videos sometimes and I'll be like, what would make you turn this video off? Because if we're only ever preaching to the people who agree with us, we're not bringing people to the movement. And I think absolutely there is a time and place and space for people to just say it's all or nothing. And if you're not going to get on board,
paul chatlin (32:29.018)
Thank you.
Maggie Herskowitz (32:36.225)
then screw you, you're wrong for that.
Bryan (32:40.293)
But aren't we there already? Haven't we already passed several planetary tipping points and we should be screaming this from the top of the mountain? Okay.
Maggie Herskowitz (32:45.183)
Absolutely, I'm just, that is true. With environmentalism, absolutely. But in terms of reduction of meat consumption and things like that, I know there are people who say, meatless Mondays is useless, going vegetarian is useless, it needs to be an overnight transformation. And I would love to see people give a little more grace to get people on board because it...
Bryan (32:56.261)
Yes.
Maggie Herskowitz (33:12.608)
And especially with environmentalism, like that, that you're right. That needs to happen yesterday. And a big part of that is holding the corporations accountable as well, because I do what I can to as an individual reduce all my carbon footprint. I don't shop fast fashion. I don't, I don't have a car. I've always used public transportation. even in LA where it's difficult to do that. I'm vegan. You know, I, I do everything I can to reduce my personal footprint and I appreciate it.
that other people are doing that, but there also needs to be more pressure on and more legislation of these big corporations that are just decimating the environment. And I also think it's important to make veganism and environmentalism intersectional, because I know it can sometimes feel like a white person thing, and there's a perception of that, but overwhelmingly, it is people of color and communities of color who are affected by the
the runoffs of factory farms. It is people in the global south who are going to suffer most in environmental crises. So for white leftists who go, well, I don't have to worry about veganism because that's a racist thing. If you're a person of color who's been affected by racism in the vegan community, in the environmentalist community, I'm not gonna speak to that. But white leftists, white environmentalists who discount.
veganism or certain aspects of environmentalism on the basis of racism. Again, I think it's a disingenuous thing. I think it is a way to protect oneself and stop ourselves from holding ourselves accountable because we're able to go, no, no, no, I believe in this cause, so I'm not going to support that cause. But really, it's all interlinked. And yeah, the environment's in big, big trouble and personal action, but also holding corporations to it.
paul chatlin (34:55.194)
Okay.
Maggie Herskowitz (35:08.897)
a different standard and I don't know how we do that because especially in America it seems to be leaning into a very anti -science bent.
Jonathan Balcombe (35:18.003)
I think part of the value and the power of a meatless Monday or a veganuary movement is it's an entree. It's a way for people to get a taste of literally and metaphorically a different way of eating and to realize it's not difficult to realize that the plant -based milks are delicious and versatile and you can cook anything. And if you want to have meat, you can have it because it's plant -based and maybe in the future cell -based.
Bryan (35:18.117)
Yeah.
Maggie Herskowitz (35:25.311)
Mm -hmm.
Maggie Herskowitz (35:32.223)
Yes.
Jonathan Balcombe (35:40.275)
that we don't have to give up the pleasures. And then the environmental issue is powerful because most people these days, A, they're aware of the issue, B, they want to be identifying with it. Everyone wants to say, I'm pro -environment, I'm for the environment. Well, then they need to learn the simple fact that when we eat animals, we are consuming far more resources, water, earth, soil.
and plants as well. This is a common misconception. I'm sure it's not shared by this group who's informed, but people still think that if we all ate plants, there wouldn't be enough plants to feed everybody. Hello, if you eat meat, you're eating herbivores, you're eating cows, you're eating chickens. They need to consume so much plant material to build their bodies, which is why the ratio of land consumption...
Maggie Herskowitz (36:19.071)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yup. Yup.
Jonathan Balcombe (36:29.619)
if you're eating cows is 15 times if you're eating plants directly. And just one other number, the animal agriculture takes about 83 % of the farm land in the world currently, and it produces about 18 % of the calories. That really speaks to its inefficiency. So if you want to be an environment, don't eat animals. An environmentalist, I should say.
Bryan (36:51.909)
Absolutely. Well,
paul chatlin (36:54.458)
So I could get the two of you to grab all your friends in this area and join us so we could have a bigger voice. Is that what I'm hearing? Because individually, if we're just doing it for education, because there is no movement to me, to me. There's no plant based movement. There's no real animal movement. There's no planetary movement because it's splintered and it's splintered internal and external. We need to create a voice of people, kind people who are willing to listen.
We have got to make changes. And Maggie, what you said was 100 % correct. I could talk all day to the plant -based people and they know who I am, but I'm not converting them. They're already converted. What makes the difference to me is I go to some people I love and care about and they see how it changes me. And they realize, hey, I should try this. And when they try it, they feel better. And the same goes with if they can understand, you know, they love their dog, but they eat meat. Like how can, like,
Be honest with yourself, stop saying like to me it's always, well, that's the way they were brought up and that's what they knew and all that. And I'm thinking to myself, that's like I tell my kids, like you're growing ass adults, like make decisions and be responsible, even if you're wrong, own them. You know what I'm saying? So I don't want, it's tough for me to hear people say, well, you know, it's cause my mom and dad treated me bad when I was a kid. Well, you're an adult, change it. Change the way you look at it. Be honest with yourself. I am.
Maggie Herskowitz (38:16.384)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
paul chatlin (38:22.202)
pretty radical about this stuff and I don't care.
Bryan (38:25.509)
Well, I want to jump into a couple of news articles that might spark a couple more pieces of conversation, but I still take us back to Dominion because, you know, there's a little over 300 million Americans in the United States and Dominion threw up some statistics from the movie. Whenever that movie was made, I forget which year, but turkeys in the United States, 243 million turkeys killed every year. Pigs in the United States, 118 million chickens or pigs, sorry.
And then just the broiler chickens, not talking about other kinds of chickens here in the United States, 8 .9 billion in the United States, 8 .9 billion chickens in just the United States. Yeah, something like that. So, I mean, just you have to really think, like, have you seen some of those internet memes where it shows a stack of $10 and then $100 and a trillion dollars kind of a thing, like to really understand how many are happening here. It's just...
Jonathan Balcombe (39:08.019)
More than 300 per second, I was told.
paul chatlin (39:11.994)
Thank you.
Maggie Herskowitz (39:16.48)
Mm -hmm.
Bryan (39:24.549)
really, really shocking to see nine, you know, close to 9 billion chickens, you know, murdered every single year to feed the chicken nugget society that we live in. But they're...
Jonathan Balcombe (39:37.939)
And as Maggie said, everyone an individual, unique individual.
Maggie Herskowitz (39:40.704)
Yep.
Bryan (39:41.725)
1000 % that was probably born and their beak chopped off right away on that front. So I do think the couple of articles that I pulled in just to talk about it is in Vigo, a lab animal breeding company was recently fined $35 million for severe animal welfare violations. They were found guilty of violating the Welfare Act and Clean Water Act.
Maggie Herskowitz (39:46.72)
Yes.
Bryan (40:10.277)
inhumane treatment of more than 4 ,000 beagles, dogs that were denied basic care and exposed to dangerous conditions. They provided obviously profit over compliance and desire, dire consequences for the animals and even environmental pollution. So, I don't know, like where, where do we, where do we go? I mean, like this is the real men eat plants podcast because what I've found with what my journey is trying to do is to help.
more men wake up, you know, and you take the standard American society culture, men are supposed to lead the family, they're supposed to earn the money and all that, the old backwards way of thinking to a degree, but like, we have to get more men to wake up. Most of the companies that I speak with, most of the vegans I know, they're all women. It's probably 80 % women on that front.
Maggie Herskowitz (41:01.503)
Mm.
Bryan (41:05.701)
I don't know why guys, more guys aren't going vegan, because all the women are over on this side of the fence. But like, how do we get more men to wake up and at least try out the meatless Mondays, like you said, and dip their toes in the water. I'm just curious some of your thoughts from an animal perspective. Like there's, I think every guy is going to get affected by one of those three things. I want to be in better shape, healthier. I want to help the planet or I want to save the animals.
Maggie Herskowitz (41:09.439)
That's true.
Bryan (41:35.173)
So I don't know, weigh in on the news article or the men concept.
Jonathan Balcombe (41:40.371)
I'll just mention a couple of films. Game Changers, you've probably heard of that. Vegan Athletes.
Maggie Herskowitz (41:43.552)
Yup, that's what made my father go vegan, finally.
Bryan (41:45.061)
Mm -hmm.
Jonathan Balcombe (41:48.403)
Yeah, that's got a great appeal to men and masculinity.
Maggie Herskowitz (41:49.216)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Jonathan Balcombe (41:52.723)
and it can raise a few eyebrows. What the health, in terms of just the health, because athleticism and sports is all tied up with health as well, or should be. So films are a very powerful medium. I just want to mention a film producer and director who I know, Mark DeVries, is just launching his film, Humans and Other Animals. It's going to be premiering in various theaters over the next month, I guess July, I think it is. It looks like it's going to be a powerful film.
a little separate from that particular issue of men but of course it does come into play in so many of these films that need to be seen by a broader public.
Maggie Herskowitz (42:32.928)
Bryan (42:33.445)
Thank you, Jonathan, for bringing that up. I absolutely love forks over knives. That's what did it for me. But Maggie?
Maggie Herskowitz (42:41.376)
I mean, there were so many different things in your very fascinating presentation of different thoughts that I could jump off of. But I made a face when you said the thing about them being fined for mistreatment and violation of the Animal Welfare Act, because I was like, well, they weren't being fined for treatment of rats, because they're not covered under the Animal Welfare Act, so you can do anything to them. Never not going to make me mad.
I... yeah, it's so funny. I think, not to make assumptions, I think I may be from a different generation than you guys, but I know in my generation the term soy boy is used as an insult to people's masculinity. With the idea, specifically the idea that if you are eating soy instead of meat, you are less of a man. And...
Bryan (43:38.661)
Mm -hmm.
Maggie Herskowitz (43:39.232)
I think that's just the craziest friggin' stigma to have. Because when you talk about the people who are like, you know, men, leading the family and strong values for future generations, like, girl, there aren't gonna be future generations if we don't get things right with the planet. And changing the way we eat is one of those things. But people...
Bryan (43:57.893)
Right.
Maggie Herskowitz (44:04.8)
The cognitive dissonance is so overwhelming. And one of the arguments I see online a lot is crop deaths.
It's like, if you're vegan, you're killing more animals because more animals die in the fields than in factory farming. And it's like, well, what do you think the animals are eating? Like we are growing more crops to feed animals and then ourselves than we would be if we were just growing crops to feed ourselves directly. But it's so funny because I just know so many people who love animals.
but also eat them and sometimes feel guilty about it and are like, I know, I know it's terrible, but do it anyway. Or some who just go, no, it's different. It's different to love my dog than it is to eat a cow. And it's so, I really do find it fascinating in an infuriating way because I don't understand it.
And I you know in terms of getting the girlies Although that that shouldn't be the goal, but I will say I celebrated my two -year anniversary with my lovely boyfriend yesterday And I always say I wouldn't have gone out with him if I hadn't had the experience I had right before he messaged me online, so I was on hinge I'll try and make this a short story but basically on hinge you choose prompt and then fill them in and I had matched my
with a professor without realizing his age, which he was lying about anyway, but all his pictures were him with animals and all the work he's done with animals and he specifically chose the prompt.
Maggie Herskowitz (45:47.135)
don't hate me if, and then filled the rest of the sentence in with I talk about how much I love animals and the environment and then order a cheeseburger for dinner. So that's what he was leading with. Like he was, his thing was I love animals and the environment so much and I also love a good cheeseburger. And I chatted with him a little and I was like, I hate that philosophy. I matched with my current boyfriend and all my pictures were meat with animals, of course.
He responded back, he was like, hey, I noticed that a lot of stuff is you and animals, that's the field you work in. I don't like interacting with animals. How much of a deal breaker is that for you? Which normally would have been a deal breaker for me, but he immediately followed it up with, but I'm a vegetarian, because I don't like the idea of them being hurt. So on one side of the spectrum, you have someone who goes, nothing brings me more joy in my life than animals.
paul chatlin (46:41.338)
Thank you.
Maggie Herskowitz (46:46.946)
And I'm perfectly comfortable with financing their slaughter en masse in factory farms versus someone who goes Personally animals don't bring me a great level of joy But I can't stand the thought of them suffering and it's like I don't I don't know how
paul chatlin (46:50.742)
you
paul chatlin (47:02.778)
We should marry them. Marry them.
Bryan (47:05.477)
Hehehe.
Maggie Herskowitz (47:06.336)
you get through to those people who do say, I love animals, I love the environment, and I have no interest in taking responsibility personally to reduce that suffering. You know? Mm -hmm.
paul chatlin (47:19.578)
You know, Maggie.
Bryan (47:19.813)
I.
Maggie Herskowitz (47:23.368)
He's pretty great. He's not vegan though, he's still vegetarian, but I'm like slowly, slowly nudging.
Bryan (47:24.965)
Heheheheh
paul chatlin (47:30.906)
You're you. I could tell that you're nudging will accomplish your goal. I'm certain and yeah, fingers crossed. I think that what I keep hearing is is again. I think that. We might need to have just found a way to to merge all the passion of the animal people, the planet people, the human people, and we've got to create something bigger than who we are individually.
because I mean you could hear all the, you know, I can't understand people who do this, I don't understand that, the science is this, but at the end of the day, if we don't make changes to find a way to work with the people that are in the same passion group that we're in, then we're no better off, nothing's going to change. So, you know, I just think that we just need to find a way to work together to meld groups, to meld.
like -minded people who care about the animal, planets, and humans. So I...
Maggie Herskowitz (48:29.183)
Yeah. there's before I forget. sorry.
Bryan (48:31.301)
I need to hire you.
I need to hire you Maggie because I need you to help rebut to all the comments. Real men eat plants, get a lot of hateful comments. And then if you go check out another one that's so much fun to look at is Molly's Elwood dog meat. Yeah, Elwood dog meat is just such a, yeah, love, love, love what she's doing with the dog meat concept there. So.
Maggie Herskowitz (48:39.295)
The...
Maggie Herskowitz (48:47.839)
Dog L Wood Beet Farms. very, very familiar. I...
She's great. She's brilliant. Two quick things. Replying to comments is one of my favorite things. One of the...
It's so funny, the videos I like spend hours and hours and hours working so hard on these, what I consider eloquent, brilliant video essays that get a hundred views. And then one time, just cause I was like, I should upload something. I posted eight minutes of me petting my rats and it got 5 ,000 views. So now I post a lot of just me with my rats. But someone commented one time on a video of me administering antibiotics to all my rats saying, I can't believe, you know, this is so,
Bryan (49:24.581)
Heheheheh
Maggie Herskowitz (49:35.218)
disgusting that you're, you know, giving meds to rats when there are real people out there who can't afford their medication. You know, this is horrible." And I responded and was like, you are so right. It is absolutely horrific that there are people out there who can't afford their medication. That's why I'm consistently voting for candidates whose views on socialized healthcare reflect mine. That's why I was a volunteer helpline operator at the National Eating Disorders Association for six years to help people work on their mental health. I'm so glad our
views aligned, please let me know what you've been doing to help humans with their health as well. So anytime you want me to swoop into a comment section, I'm right there. But Paul, to speak to what you were saying about getting people involved in the movement about...
Bryan (50:14.469)
Heheheheh.
paul chatlin (50:17.37)
Thank you.
Maggie Herskowitz (50:22.143)
bringing voices together and Jonathan, it sounds like this may be very much in line with what you're doing in your writing. I'm very passionate about making this information and these basic principles and ideas accessible to the lay person. There's a great website called Faunalytics. I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with it, but it's faunalytics .com, which hilariously is all
paul chatlin (50:37.562)
Thank you.
Maggie Herskowitz (50:52.097)
about taking very complex scientific articles and making them accessible for advocates, whether they are advocates of animal rights, of environmentalism. I think it's funny that it's called phonolitics because that's a portmanteau of fauna and analytics and I don't find that name itself very accessible. But if you're someone who wants to do some science -based advocacy and wants to have those facts at your fingertips but perhaps aren't trained in reading the science,
that's a great resource for people.
Bryan (51:23.665)
Thank you.
Maggie Herskowitz (51:29.823)
Fabulous. Ooh, should we put, I don't know how to do this. Can I put my YouTube channel up here so people can see that and go to it?
Bryan (51:29.829)
There it is.
Bryan (51:37.893)
Totally can, just message it to me in the chat and I can pop it up on the screen. Jonathan, what's your thoughts on anything Maggie said as we're getting close to wrapping up here?
Maggie Herskowitz (51:40.191)
Great, I don't know how to use technology.
Jonathan Balcombe (51:49.523)
Anything Maggie says about rats, I'm just on board and I get all excited and mushy. Especially that big male rat you have. He's so chill. Yeah, I'm writing a book right now under contract that's about the kinder side of nature. And I have a section in there about rats, laughing rats. There's a series of studies, very rigorous scientific studies were done.
Maggie Herskowitz (51:55.456)
I was gonna say Irwin come back Irwin I know he's my squishy boy
Jonathan Balcombe (52:16.979)
showing that rats have a laughter, the equivalent of our laughter when they're tickled, especially when they're young, they'll literally chase the hand to be tickled and they make these 50 kilohertz sounds, squeaks, that are much far above our hearing, but you can tune into them with bat detectors, especially equipment, and their endorphin levels are up and all this stuff. They're having fun, they're just delighted.
Maggie Herskowitz (52:33.311)
Bye.
Bryan (52:40.357)
I love it.
paul chatlin (52:41.018)
a brand would you help me out of this i want to put in my website because i'm actually going to ask jonathan and maggie to join me but i don't know i think the word chat on your thing and it's not allowing me to type so brian can you put the stage circle on it?
Bryan (52:45.765)
Of course, yeah.
Maggie Herskowitz (52:48.927)
Absolutely.
Bryan (52:59.781)
Well, let's make sure we're getting close to wrapping up here. I really want to appreciate and point out to Jonathan, Maggie, and Paul for hanging out with me and helping talk about this important topic that doesn't get enough attention is the animals themselves. So thank you all for being here. But why don't we just take a round around the horn here and let me know how do people get in touch with each of you and any wrap up comments. So.
Maggie Herskowitz (53:02.047)
I know.
Bryan (53:29.541)
Jonathan, you want to go first?
Jonathan Balcombe (53:31.251)
Sure, people can contact me through my website, which is the spelling of my name, www .johnathanbalcom .com. My books are available there. I have a bi -monthly newsletter, All Things Fish. But I also write about flies and insects and nature more broadly, really focusing on animal emotions, animal thoughts, animals' inner lives and personalities and the like. And a closing statement, you know, if you love animals, don't eat them. It's a basic message and it's the best thing one can do for the environment.
for ethics and for personal health.
Bryan (54:04.645)
Awesome. Thank you again, Jonathan, for being here. Paul.
Jonathan Balcombe (54:07.603)
Thanks for having me.
paul chatlin (54:08.738)
Jonathan, I want to sell your books on our website that Brian has helped me create. I guess my final thoughts are if you want to reach me for straight human health, you can reach me directly. I mean, we're going to do this today. I've never done this. Paul at the letter PBNSG .org. Give me a shout out, respond back. If you want to be part of something, create a bigger voice that would include animals, planet, and humans.
best way to do that is join us at the Safe Circle Alliance. And I want to say that, you know, I've been on a lot of human health podcasts. This is my first real dive, other than the time I spent with Will Tuttle, with Animal Advocates. So Jonathan and Maggie, it's different. I mean, Jonathan comes at it from one way and Maggie's at a different. And...
And I want to say it was just wonderful to meet you too. And you kind of blew me away a little bit, Maggie, with the rat. I got nothing wrong with that. I got a niece who has guinea pigs. That's her jam. Her jam is guinea pigs. Mine is right now those silly animal humans. But nice, really nice to meet you. Thank you, Brian, for inviting me.
Maggie Herskowitz (55:05.664)
Aww.
Maggie Herskowitz (55:16.896)
Mm -hmm.
Maggie Herskowitz (55:21.696)
Thank you.
Bryan (55:22.789)
Thank you, Paul. We appreciate you being here. And I think I had the gerbils growing up, so a close relative to the rat. And I had far too many gerbils. Had to keep my cats away from them. But Maggie, thanks for being here. Again, I'll put your YouTube up on the thing. How do people get in touch with you?
Maggie Herskowitz (55:26.656)
Mmm.
Maggie Herskowitz (55:34.88)
Yeah. Yes, yes, please, yes, please, please join me on my YouTube. I think it's really fun. I wear silly clothes and I talk about things in what I hope is a humorous way. I'm gonna co -sign what Jonathan said about not eating animals and also add.
that staying away from laboratory tested cosmetics is super great. And I know if it's mostly men listening and maybe you don't use makeup per se, sunscreens, shampoos, deodorants, things we use all the time are still being tested on animals and it's so unnecessary. Like without even getting into the debate of medicine, you don't need your sunblock tested on my very, very...
beautiful, wonderful rats, and the treatment of lab animals is horrific in its own way, so don't eat them and don't use products tested on them.
Bryan (56:36.933)
Thank you, Maggie. And that is Mad About Animals, Mags on YouTube. So check that out. That is all the time we have for this episode of the Real Men Eat Plants podcast. So thank you for all being here and remember everybody, each step we take towards a vegan lifestyle is a step towards more compassionate and sustainable world that we're trying to create here. So keep pushing those boundaries, stay informed.
Keep spreading the kindness and until next time, keep eating plants and advocating for those without a voice and we'll see you next time.
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