From Comfort Food to Healing: Katherine Lawrence's Journey to Plant-Based Nutrition

Katherine Lawrence's journey to plant-based nutrition is a powerful story of transformation. Growing up in Louisiana, Katherine was immersed in rich Southern comfort food, which became a way of life. Her career took her from aerospace engineering to the Air Force, and later to a defense contractor in Texas, where her eating habits remained unchanged. But at 27, Katherine received a devastating diagnosis of stage four endometriosis, which threatened her fertility and required a full hysterectomy.

Initially skeptical, Katherine followed her mother's advice to see a macrobiotic nutritionist, who recommended eliminating meat, dairy, and sugar. Although reluctant, Katherine adopted this new diet, eating simple meals like brown rice, beans, and broccoli. Remarkably, within weeks, her pain lessened. When she went in for surgery, her doctor found that 95% of her endometriosis had vanished, calling it a "miracle."

This experience sparked Katherine’s passion for plant-based nutrition. She left her engineering job to teach others about the healing power of food, eventually becoming an instructor for Dr. T. Colin Campbell and the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM). She also founded Food Saved Me. Her story has inspired countless women facing similar health challenges.

Today, Katherine is the mother of three healthy, plant-based boys. She continues to educate others, emphasizing the importance of nutrition for disease prevention and overall well-being. Katherine’s story is a testament to the transformative power of a plant-based diet, not just in healing but in empowering individuals to take control of their health.

Watch the full episode of here: Katherine Lawrence on Her Fertility Miracle, and More!

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DISCLAIMER: Please understand that the transcript below was provided by a transcription service. It is undoubtedly full of the errors that invariably take place in voice transcriptions. To understand the interview more completely and accurately, please watch it here: Katherine Lawrence on Her Fertility Miracle, and More!

Glen Merzer: Welcome to the Glen Merzer Show. can find us across all your favorite podcast platforms. You could find us on YouTube. And please remember to subscribe. You could find us at RealMenEatPlants .com. I've been looking forward to today's guest, Katherine Lawrence, because I've never met her before, but she's a good friend of my good friend, Dr. Gustavo Tolosa. And she has more than 17 years of experience teaching nutrition for disease prevention. She has certifications from Stanford Medicine in Nutrition Science and Cornell University in Plant Based Nutrition. She worked for Dr. T. Colin Campbell as an instructor, and she's been a PCRM Food for Life instructor for over 15 years. And she has recently founded the nonprofit Food Save Me Institute. So, Katherine, welcome to the show. 

Katherine Lawrence: Hi, thank you. I'm excited to be here. I've been a fan of yours, even though we've never met. 

Glen Merzer: All right. Well, thank you very much. And tell us your journey to plant based nutrition. I'm guessing you didn't grow up in a vegan household. 

Katherine Lawrence: No.My journey has been kind of long and twisty. I'm from Louisiana. So I grew up eating really rich Southern comfort food. And I grew up in my grandmother's kitchens and learning basically that food is love, right? And food is everything and it's how we express emotion. So I have a lot of food addiction issues that come along with that. But that's how I grew up eating. So I didn't even know what a vegan or a vegetarian was. After college, I went to an almost all -male college and I would cook for them and make all these rich cajuns. 

Glen Merzer: What was this almost all -male college?

Katherine Lawrence:  Embry -Riddle Aeronautical University. My first degree is in aerospace engineering. Hungry men, I was taught to feed them, so I did that. And then after college, I was in the Air Force for several years and it was the same situation. I would cook all that. gumbo and Creole and etouffé and all that. 

Glen Merzer: When you were eating all these cooking and eating all these rich foods, you slender like you are now? 

Katherine Lawrence: Well, I was then because the Air Force made me work out all the time. OK. So yes. So I had no I never gave any thought to my weight or my health, even though I used to brag that I didn't eat vegetables and, you know, I thought that was cool. It's terrible. but it did catch up to me when I got out of the air force. I ended up here in Texas working for a defense contractor, a helicopter company. And, and I was doing, you know, there's a lot of men there and I just ended up cooking, cooking. And so I was eating the same diet that I was raised on, but I had stopped exercising, right? cause nobody was making me get up at 5 a To do that. So that's when the weight started coming on and came on pretty quickly. And after working there for a few years, that's that's when it happened. I had to have been what happened. 

Glen Merzer: What happened after a few years? 

Katherine Lawrence: Well, I was I was really unhealthy and I didn't know it. I I had had tremendous abdominal pain going on for months and they couldn't figure out what it was. Eventually they discovered I had stage four endometriosis and ovarian and uterine and my whole reproductive system had just kind of shut down. My endo, if you know anything about it, a lot of times it forms adhesions to other organs. So mine had wrapped around my colon and adhered it to my abdominal wall. So anytime food tried to pass through my colon, it was very painful. And that's why I kept getting misdiagnosed. It took them a while to figure out. So I was told that I was completely infertile. My case was so aggressive, I would probably end up with endometrial cancer. And so at the age of twenty seven, they told me I needed a full hysterectomy.

Glen Merzer:  And were you single or married at this time? 

Katherine Lawrence: I was single. I was dating. 

Glen Merzer: Yeah. OK. So you get this really rough diagnosis. And so what did you decide to do? 

Katherine Lawrence: Well, I didn't know anything. about anything then. I remember asking the doctor, it my food? Because I was having like double cheeseburgers for breakfast sometimes and Cheetos and Coke. And he said, no, no, it's not the food. There's no cure for what you have. And I remember at the time, shamefully, I felt relieved because I thought, I didn't do this to myself. So I'm sure that night I went home and made a big pot of gumbo and just kind of ate my feelings. So I was, didn't really ask more questions beyond that. I scheduled the hysterectomy and I was moving forward. What changed is that my mom, I'm an only child and she wanted grandkids. And so she started looking into it. She had heard something on the radio about like vegetarian eating and she actually scheduled an appointment for me to go talk to a nutritionist and I only went because I wanted to tell her I tried everything, you know, but I totally didn't think it was going to work. 

Glen Merzer: Now, was this a conventional nutritionist or a vegetarian or vegan nutritionist? 

Katherine Lawrence: She was actually macrobiotic. Okay. So plant based, but also macrobiotic with the miso and seaweed and traditional healing elements there. Yeah. Okay. 

Glen Merzer: So what did the nutritionist tell you? 

Katherine Lawrence: Well, the first thing she said, asked me to take meat and dairy out of my diet. And I thought, well, there's nothing left but sugar. And then she asked me to take sugar out. So I remember crying and thinking, I don't even know. I just don't know how to do that. And so she walked me through that. I remember my meals. were terrible. I would have like a pile of brown rice. I didn't know rice was brown, Glen because I was raised on white rice. So I would have like a pile of brown rice, a pile of beans and like a pile of broccoli. And that's just kind of how I ate for about a month because I didn't know, I didn't know when I was. 

Glen Merzer: That's a lot healthier than what you were eating before. 

Katherine Lawrence: yeah. Yeah. It really was. And, and it was enough. I, some things happened in my doctor's life where the surgery got delayed. So I ended up eating that way for about five or six weeks while I was waiting. And but I still went in for it because I had no faith that that was that was doing anything. 

Glen Merzer: You went in for surgery. 

Katherine Lawrence: Mm Yeah. And my mom was there. 

Glen Merzer: OK, but this was not a hysterectomy.

Katherine Lawrence:  Yes, I went in for the hysterectomy. I went in for the hysterectomy. I did because I ate I was eating this way. She prescribed for about five or six weeks. but I didn't have faith in it that it was doing anything. I was just doing this for my mom. And I had noticed the pain was better, but I didn't connect the two. So I went in for the hysterectomy and he woke me up less than an hour later and he had this confused look on his face, the doctor. He said, I've never seen this before. This is a miracle. What? And he said, 95 % of my active endometriosis is gone. had tons of scarring around my abdomen and he had to remove the adhesions. But he said, I have never seen this. This is a miracle. And my mom piped up, she's been trying this weird diet. And he said, no, that's not it. But he didn't feel comfortable taking anything out. He said, I want to wait and see, like, let's wait six months and see what happens.

Glen Merzer: thank goodness for that surgeon. 

Katherine Lawrence: Yes, I didn't feel that way in the moment. felt I think that was when I knew, gosh, it's the diet. I don't know how to cook this way. I'm have to keep eating this way. Like this is I was disappointed because that 

Glen Merzer: you were disappointed not to the hysterectomy?

Katherine Lawrence: Well, because because because I was young and I thought I don't know how to do this. I miss my food. I'm a food addict. And this is like, now I got to, now it put, I think what it did, it put the responsibility and the empowerment from a different perspective on me. You know, it wasn't this random thing that happened. So, so I kept eating that way for about six months. That's how long it took to convince myself. And after six months, I had lost 55 pounds. I got healthy. I was 185 when I had gotten sick. So I lost this weight. My cholesterol had come down, my blood pressure came down, my endometriosis did not come back. I started to get these new baby hairs at 27. It was remarkable. I had tons of baby hairs coming. I still have some, which is great. And then what got me is that I had seven fibroid cysts in my breasts since I was a teenager, since puberty. And every woman in my family, in my bloodline has them. We just thought it was a Robinette thing. but after seven months, those had completely dissolved. And that's when I surrendered and just said, okay, this is the diet that my body works best on. And at the time, the news had done a story on like what local veterans are doing or something. And I was sharing some information about my story and they picked it And I got, it got picked up in a bunch of markets across the U S. So one night I got hundreds, hundreds of emails. can hardly, I can hardly get through without crying. Hundreds of emails from women in the exact same situation who said, I had this problem. No one told me I had options. You know, I had the hysterectomy and now I'll never have children. Like, why aren't, why aren't people talking about this? Why aren't doctor? And so that, that changed my life.

Glen Merzer:  Well, those women who said, why wasn't I told I had this option? 

Katherine Lawrence: Their doctors didn't know it. They didn't. doctors were not taught it in medical school. And so that's why. Yeah. the same thing happens with heart disease. I mean, it's extraordinary, but cardiologists don't seem to know that you can reverse heart disease with diet. It's extraordinary. I know we're going to get to it, but later on when I became an instructor for Dr. Campbell, our first question in that class is in the online plant -based certification is, why are you here? And all of the physicians and nurses who went through that program, the majority of them answered, I'm here because my patients are asking questions that I don't know the answer to. And I was taken aback by that. was excited that they're there to learn, you know, and like change the direction of this. But that was just it was just shocking to me that to hear that from them, you know, and I was glad they were pursuing it.

Glen Merzer:  So take us further along in the story. Your your endometriosis essentially heals, reverses. Then what happened?

Katherine Lawrence: Well, I decided after reading all those heartbreaking emails, someone had to do something and people needed to know. So I resigned from my engineering job in working on helicopters and I decided that I wanted to teach nutrition classes. And so that's what I did. I went to school, started learning and took the Cornell program first. I applied for to be a PCRM food for life instructor. And everybody thought I was crazy. They were like, you're leaving an engineering job to talk about food. I said, yes, yes, there's something to this. So I've been, yeah, as you mentioned, I've been teaching for PCRM a really long time. Dr. Barnard has featured me in a couple of his books, The Cheese Trap and Your Body and Balance, My Story. But I have a punchline. The best part of my story came later when I had children. I was able, so I went from completely infertile to going on to have three boys and they're currently 12, 10 and seven. So it's a little chaotic in my house, but I was plant -based for years, healing my body before I got pregnant. All of my pregnancies were plant -based and And that's how my boys have been raised. And to answer the question I always get. Yes, they're smart and they're strong and they're tall. One of them skipped a grade. We're not lacking protein or calcium or anything like that. then 

Glen Merzer: healthy vegan boys. 

Katherine Lawrence: Right. Yeah. Yeah. From conception. So and they're compassionate, which I appreciate. 

Glen Merzer: That's wonderful. That's an amazing story. 

Katherine Lawrence: Thank you.

Glen Merzer: And the surgeon who stopped the surgery, you and the boys have good favor there? 

Katherine Lawrence: Yeah, I can't even, you know, when I'm teaching now, like I'm all immersed in nutrition and the nutrition community and things that I feel like are obvious. You know, I'm reminded when I teach that people have not been exposed to this information I think I have more compassion looking back at myself when I was 27, that I had good intentions, but I just never knew. And people around me and my parents didn't know about diet. And so I think the work that you do, that all of us do in this community is so important because it seems, know, fiber seems so obvious, but it's such a foreign concept, for example, to so many people still, it's heartbreaking. Yeah, I just didn't know. what a change in my life that would be if I hadn't had kids. I would probably get more sleep, but still I would be missing out for what I was called to do. Yeah

Glen Merzer: Well, you've brought three new vegans into the world, which significantly raises our percentage in the population. 

Katherine Lawrence: Yeah. I'm trying to convert more every day. 

Glen Merzer: Yes. So, now how difficult is it to raise children as vegans? they go, I assume they go, they go to a public school and. 

Katherine Lawrence: They have gone to public school, but I mean, it's the same. Now they go to like a private hybrid school where they're in school two days and then we homeschool the other three days. But it's the same challenges really.

Glen Merzer:  They meet with other children.who are eating hamburgers and french fries and chicken nuggets. And so how did you teach them to deal with that? 

Katherine Lawrence: Yeah, it's a transition because when they're young, I can fully control everything. Right. And they're eating and then when they're with their peers and then as they're maturing, our 12 year old for sure. I'm teaching him to make his own decisions and, you hoping that he makes the right ones. But I would say beyond the point of where it's not in your control anymore, it's about education. And when I cook at home with them, it's almost like I just can't help but teach. So I'm always talking about the benefits of every food I give them. And tomatoes are a big topic in our house because I grew up with sisters, so this is foreign to me, but little boys are obsessed with their body parts, right? or maybe it's just mine, I don't know. But so we talk about, you know, how good tomatoes are for the prostate and - 

Glen Merzer: I don't think I knew I had a prostate till I was about 35.

Katherine Lawrence:  well, my boys know. At one point they would confuse it, because one of my boys was at school, because I try to teach them about the health benefits, like how these foods are helping them, so that when they're in school and kids say, hey, what's that, they have an answer. And at least for themselves, they know why they're eating it instead of like string cheese. And a kid asked one of my sons, because he had some cherry tomatoes in his lunch. Why do you have that? Why are you eating those? your lunch looks weird. And, and JP said, well, my mom said, if I eat lots of tomatoes, I'm going to have a huge prostate. Like, that's not, that's not what you think it is. 

Glen Merzer: Got the lesson a little wrong there. 

Katherine Lawrence: Yeah. So I think, I think education, we have,as part of their chore lists every day, dishwasher, brushing your teeth and stuff, they have to watch one of Dr. Greger's videos. They're just short enough for their intention span. 

Glen Merzer: That's great. 

Katherine Lawrence: Yeah. mean, they sometimes have to intervene on what, because they pick a lot on like those like going to the bathroom and stuff like that, but they've got to watch a nutrition video. So they have the information. then usually twice a month, we watch some kind documentary on the healing effects of it. There are some people in our, in their family that, you know, don't adhere to what we teach and completely reject it and completely deny it. And, and that's even more complicated when it's coming from a family member or an authority member. They're not in our household, but they have exposure with the kids. And so I've, I've decided as a mom, The best way I can protect them is just giving them the information now. And then when they are able to decide on their own, hopefully they choose to stay this way. I also try to teach them about their bodies. When they go to one family member's house, they don't get much fiber. And I believe that he's probably giving them some dairy products and things. And so when they come home, they're constipated and they don't feel good. And so, so I talked to them, like you're feeling this way because you weren't eating much fiber. And if you had, if you had cheese and that slows down the peristalsis of your digestion and they're like, mom, this doesn't feel good. And I said, you're probably going to decide this is not worth it. You know, So that's 

Glen Merzer: maybe you could put a hidden camera on them when they go to that house. 

Katherine Lawrence: Well, for two of them, it's I don't know. I don't know. They go to they go to another parent's house. 

Glen Merzer: Now, how about your husband? Is he on board?

Katherine Lawrence:  yeah. Yeah, he is. is. When I met him, he had prediabetes and hypertension. Really, really bad. 

Glen Merzer: And when you met him, he was on the standard American diet.

Katherine Lawrence: Yep. And I told him and

Glen Merzer:  when you met him, you were already on this diet. Yep. So you converted your husband.

Katherine Lawrence: I did. I mean, he asked me out and I said, well, this is this is what I'm about and this is how I eat. And, know, I guess love will make you do crazy things. And he said, OK, well, I'll try it. And it's been amazing. He lost 60 pounds and 

Glen Merzer: 60 pounds. 

Katherine Lawrence: Yeah. No longer pre -diabetic, no longer hypertensive, he's really handsome, he looks fit. And it's an interesting contrast, because we're in our late 40s. And when we go to events and things, most men in that age group will, you know, they have like the stereotypical like dad bod, right? For the belly and stuff. And he doesn't, and he's got a lot of energy People always comment on that. And he actually helps me teach the classes quite a bit because a lot of times the majority of my nutrition classes are women and they're always, they always say, you know, well, I can do this, but my husband will never do it. sometimes having my husband there and saying, look guys, I get it. I get it. I used to eat steak and yada yada, but these are all the great things that have come out of this. It's It's like the men believe him over me, I think, which is fine, which is fine. We have to figure out who we resonate with. But Matt and I actually, asked him, I said, how do we get more men into our classes? Cause I had created some classes on food addiction and immune system. And it was primarily women. And he said, men care about two things, sleep and sex. And I thought, okay. So we created a sleep class together, food for better sleep. And my gosh, and the room was packed. It was incredible. And it was about 30, 40 % men. And I thought, wow, we're onto something. Because in middle age, know, CPAPs are so common and all that. So I said, okay, well, let's level up. We created a sex class. And it's basically, mean, you know, Glen, like to talk about ED, you're basically talking about heart disease and blood flow and cardiovascular disease. And so it's, it's called intercourses, but we, for the men, we focus on ED and cardiovascular function. And then for the women, we talk about a huge problem that no one talks about, which is vaginal dryness and how soy can benefit from that. And that class fills up within two hours of us opening it. And it's so sweet. We, we see like when we say something, you about it like the phosphase like the dark colors in that gives dark sodas those colors that caramel kind of phosphoric acid how it it hardens it hardens the arteries in the penis like you can see the husbands like elbowing the wives like write that down you know and that and we talk about you know the length of of of i don't know what to call it on a public podcast but you know what i mean at length and girth and how When a man is obese, like it retracts, it retracts that organ so it actually gets shorter. So as they lose weight, it releases and they're just I mean, a lot of times that class is almost all men. It's really fascinating. 

Glen Merzer: which class filled up quicker, the sleep class or the sex class? 

Katherine Lawrence: sex intercourses. Yeah. 

Glen Merzer: So are you still offering these classes?

Katherine Lawrence: We do. We're trying to convert all of our classes to be online. So that one is in the works to be converted online so that people can watch it from anywhere. But that's the benefit of having a partner that's on board. He can reach people that I couldn't just alone. Men don't want to. It's funny after that class, he'll be surrounded by men and they're just oversharing almost about, I've got this problem, I've got this problem, and what do you do? And it's an interesting role reversal for the two of us. 

Glen Merzer: Now, find these classes at, is it at foodsaveme .institute, or is it somewhere else? 

Katherine Lawrence: foodsaveme .institute is where they can find our online classes. Currently, we have immune boosters and busters.and we have food addiction 911. And what's coming up in the next couple of months, we're releasing how to get better sleep.  nutrition for better sleep, sleep better stress less is what it's called, meal prepping, like healthy meal prepping. We have a get focus for adults, like fighting brain fog and memory issues and all of those things. And then we have a get focus for children like what children need as their brains are developing to do better in school, what to feed them on test day. And then we have a special class, African -American nutrition as well. And then later in the fall, we're releasing one for autism and ADHD and intercourses. The sex class is also on the schedule too. So we'll have a lot of. 

Glen Merzer: Well, we're going to take a brief commercial break and we'll be right back with Katherine Lawrence. 

Katherine Lawrence: Thank you.

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Glen Merzer: We're back with Katherine Lawrence. Now, Katherine, you have three biological sons. 

Katherine Lawrence: Yes. 

Glen Merzer: And one of them is on the spectrum. Is that right?

Katherine Lawrence:  Yes. 

Glen Merzer: Yes. Tell us about that journey for you. 

Katherine Lawrence: Well, that was a humbling one as a nutritionist. My my son has always had a very limited diet, which which we struggled with with how we eat, he would eat about seven things total. And he had some sensory stuff going on. And so it was just always a little bit of a challenge. I realized like, I think I need to parent him differently and something's different. And I didn't catch what it was, but I knew there was something there and he seemed to be highly affected by certain foods. So, My mom who was a social worker had recommended she said I think you need to get him tested because he had it was pretty clear he had OCD which runs in my family and I was shocked when When the psychiatrist said he has well, they call it level one autism now. It was previously referred to as Asperger's and so he has he has Asperger's and ADHD and OCD and once I heard that and really dove into what that is, all of the pieces just fit. I thought, my gosh, this is everything because all of the stimming behavior and the lack of self -regulation, the overeating, I'm like, it all fits perfect. It was like a light bulb moment for me. And so it's been, it's been really, I mean, I believe things happen in our life, at least in mine, because I'm meant to teach others about them. If nothing else, let my life be a warning to others. Just with my own reproductive journey and now being on this one with him, it's helped me grow as a nutritionist and and really figure out solutions for him that set him up for success. Like things that I things that I thought were behavior and discipline problems, they weren't. They were just a part of how his brain is is different. That's all. 

Glen Merzer: So what sort of nutritional changes worked for him? 

Katherine Lawrence: Well, For one, a lot of children on the spectrum with autism specifically have difficulty methylated some nutrients. like the B vitamins, for example, is one. And so I needed to give him methylated nutrients in a lot of cases. So we added that. 

Glen Merzer: Explain what that is. 

Katherine Lawrence: Like their body can't...more more accepted now that it's a gene mutation. And so their body can't like break down and methylate some of the nutrients. And so I've changed his diet, but also given him some supplementary support of a methylated B12 instead of the cyano B12. That's what I've been given him before was cyano. That's what we all took. He needed the methylated one. So that's one example. And I can talk about some other changes. But when you think about what we know about autism and these spectrum differences is that there's a gut brain connection. And so if the gut is not healthy, if you don't have a really strong gut microbiome, it's not getting brain nutrients that the brain needs and it's signaling process interferes also. And so while I looked at it and I thought, well, you know, before, when he's only eating a few things, I thought, well, these aren't so bad. He's gonna be, you know, it's gonna be okay. He's still not eating string cheese and chicken nuggets, right? And, but when I really dug into it and learned about this gut brain connection specifically for people on the spectrum, I realized he's getting even less than I thought. And so he needed a diet more than anyone else, much higher in certain foods and certain nutrients and I needed to really work on repairing his gut with, I needed to be more creative and more persistent with probiotics and building his gut in a way that could work. And so after I tell you the basic recommendations, I can give you some tips if you think it would be helpful. Because a lot of these kids have, like they can't, like they have a lot of issues with textures with food and. especially like taking a vitamin as well or a supplement is a challenge. So we've been able to overcome a lot of that. 

Glen Merzer: So OK, so what sort of tips would you give the audience who might be facing this? 

Katherine Lawrence: Yes, these kids and I hope this helps parents like me who thought they were discipline issues, but they weren't. So these kids, they need more plants. Basically, the short answer is they need more plants and fewer chemicals and inflammatory foods. And so they need specifically berries, blueberries to support their brain function. They need omega -3s. This is very, very important, but they need it from plant -based sources because the mercury and PCBs and things that are in, a lot of people point parents to fish and fish oil in the name of omega -3s, but there's mercury and PCBs and other concerns with that. And so, these children really need omega -3s from plant sources. So from nuts, chia seeds, flax, and dark leafy greens, soy products, olives, even spirulina. And all of those are things that my son would never eat. So it makes sense to be like, okay, we gotta work on that. They need complex carbs instead of simple carbs. So we need sweet potatoes and oatmeal peas and bananas and whole grain breads and things like that, rather than fruit juices and soda and kids on the spectrum. And everyone is different. I want to be clear about that, but there is a common saying that they like beige foods. Like they just like beige. So there's a, what that implies is a lot of processed kind of whole, like not whole grain, but like wheat. So like they like crackers and pasta and bread and a lot of stuff that doesn't really have a lot of nutrients, but they're kind of drawn to these foods for some reason. So they need those. And then especially folate. So folate is something that we want to focus on with those kids like we did with our son. And again, it's dark leafy greens. And I know most parents are probably going, my gosh, I'll never, I'll never get my kid to eat dark leafy greens. So, but you can get those folate in chickpeas and kidney beans too, and in avocados. And there's a lot of ways to hide avocados, you know, and it's supplemented in some of the processed plant products and cereals. Those are not my favorite way, but the dark leafy greens for sure and folate would be important. So really they need lots of plants, but what affects them, that what they're also so sensitive to besides this lack of nutrients is I call them brain busters. Basically it just, it just, although they're not good for anybody, they have a special, gosh, an amplified effect on neuro diverse brains. It seems like, and this is the artificial sweeteners. The excitotoxins like MSG have a tremendous effect on their ability. It's fascinating their ability to self -regulate. I was raised by a strict dad and I, if he said something, I did it right. And I tried to raise my voice that way in the beginning. And I realized this is not working with this one. Literally. Cause I would notice something is I was like, he literally couldn't, he couldn't control himself. Glen. it, I mean, I spent nights in my closet crying because I didn't understand how to, how to discipline him and parent him. it, and And it's coming from everywhere, like from at school, like food colorings, food dyes. These are very, very damaging to a developing brain for sure. And he was given foods like that. Processed carbs can exacerbate that. Caffeine drinks, high fat foods, mercury and PCBs, that's what I mentioned before. And PCBs, these are polychlorinated biphenyls and they're actually common in dairy products too which is why I think there is becoming a consensus in the autistic community that dairy products need to be removed from diet along. And there's a lot of proponents of like gluten -free diet, but trans fats. I think I mentioned high sugar foods and things like that. And so all of these are, when we think about what these kids struggle with, all of these things affect their brain function. And one of them that my son specifically struggled with was lack of self -regulation. He wasn't able when he eats, and this is common among children with autism, not all of them, but he eats and he's not able to stop. And so he overeats and then he gets terrible stomach pains and he feels bad and passes out and all that. So it was really, I thought it was discipline, but it was food coming in from sources that I couldn't control. then some things that I had gotten loose on at home. Like we had, if we're at a party and you don't want your kids to be, when you're plant -based, like you're different than a lot of people and you You don't want your kids to feel not included. And so sometimes they would have things, even if they were vegan cupcakes, but they would have like icing with food coloring and all of this sugar and all this, you know. So I was still contributing to it and not realizing it, I think. So that's that's been a humbling journey. I'm like, my gosh, I teach you. 

Glen Merzer: You said that originally your son would only eat about seven foods now. Now does he eat many?

Katherine Lawrence: Yes. Well, I don't know if I don't want to over promise and say many, but we have found some things that work for him. he's getting a lot more nutrients and something that I noticed that I found out later. A lot of parents have this story is that when they start getting the nutrients that they need and their gut is healing, they are open to more foods. So he has been asking me the last six months, Hey mom, can I try that? And I'm like, So he's open to trying it. And sometimes it's texture that throws him off. I think the biggest trick that's worked for us is an afternoon smoothie. Around three o 'clock, we make smoothies where they're green smoothies. But we start with bananas and frozen fruit because he likes that. It helps his sweet tooth. And he's getting all that vitamin C and everything. But then I pack it with like kale or collard greens, some kind of mild green that he's not gonna really notice. Sometimes we put spinach in there and then we load it up with flax seeds and chia seeds. We put hemp parts in there, spirulina, he doesn't mind. I mean, I'm getting excited just talking about it. Sometimes I scoop a little bit of avocado in there and then in that we can put his digestive enzymes. We can open those capsules, put those in there and some probiotics. And it's like, It's like night and day when he, and he will drink two, three cups of this. it's, and we see a difference in his self -regulation in his stemming and rocking and not being able to focus and how he antagonizes his brothers less when his nutrition is better. So I'm, I'm going to be, I just found out I'm going to be, I was accepted to be a Ted talk speaker in October. Thank you. And it's on this very topic. And I thought to myself, I'm so grateful for being chosen and having the opportunity. But I thought because it's about nourishing neurodiversity and what to feed like healthy foods for these children. And Ted is all about unique ideas, right? And innovative things. And I thought to The fact that eating nutrients and not eating chemicals will affect our brain function and our behavior is classified as a unique idea, tells me that we have a lot of work to do. There's a lot of people who need this. I've worked with lot of parents. I know they get tired and they're exhausted. And so they're just giving their kids all these packaged snacks. They just give in, give them whatever makes them happy. And they don't realize that it's filled with all these chemicals and the things that are going to work against the child and exacerbate those symptoms, which are the symptoms that are exhausting the parent in challenging their relationship. 

Glen Merzer: So I was thinking, as you told the story of your son and his relation to food, that almost all the lessons you learned apply to everyone else, all the healthy foods that were healthy for him. Omega 3s, greens, know, complex carbs, complex carbs. Yeah, that's what I eat. and of course, all the unhealthy foods, the sugars and the processed foods and the artificial sweeteners, they're not good for anyone else either. I know. It's almost as if The children on the spectrum are just more sensitive to the same laws of nutrition that affect all of us. 

Katherine Lawrence: That's exactly it. They're just more sensitive and it's a more immediate effect. Those foods are not good for any of us long term, but the effects show up more quickly in them. 

Glen Merzer: So perhaps one of the superpowers of those with autism is to help teach the rest of us how to eat. 

Katherine Lawrence: Yeah, yes, 

Glen Merzer: they're more sensitive to. And so as you modified the diet of your son, does he become aware himself of the diet behavior connection?

Katherine Lawrence:  I'm working on that. He's 10. I try to make him aware of it. It's usually after, if he's been at school or at friends or somewhere else where he got food that triggered him. I try to show him like, look, babe, like you're really having trouble. Like I can tell you can't focus. Like we need to take some time. Let me take time out. And he doesn't, he doesn't quite get the connection yet, but I think, I think he will. I'm planting seeds. think his biggest challenge is processed wheat like tortillas and things. And he just is absolutely obsessed with them. Any kind of processed wheat. and, and I don't quite understand why, but that's, I think that's his biggest challenge. so 

Glen Merzer: It isn't good for him when he eats that. 

Katherine Lawrence: It's not, he seems to, you know, and I'm not anti -wheat. He, he seems to like, like a lot of children on the spectrum, respond. It's just really, It just really, I think, messes with his brain function in fog. 

Glen Merzer: then does it make it is it helpful at all if it's sprouted wheat?

Katherine Lawrence: Yes, that's better if I can get him to eat it. yeah. Yeah, we don't have those responses. And I notice the food dyes and additives really trigger him that he really loses control a lot with those. So I don't have to worry about fish or anything. We're not having that. But any kind You know, when he's in these social situations and I'm not always there, there's a it's a real it's kind of a meltdown day. So I think that if I keep talking about it and showing him that he'll make that connection later, because he's going to have to navigate this on his own at some point. 

Glen Merzer: Right now, like most Americans, I grew up eating hamburgers and chicken and. You know, spare ribs in the Chinese restaurant and awful foods like And so I knew as a child that I was eating animals on some level. guess I didn't like to think about it, but I at some point I certainly knew that chicken was chicken. That's not too hard to figure out. And but with your sons who grew up vegan, it odd to them that other human beings eat animals?

Katherine Lawrence: It is. the situations where I would say my oldest, because he goes to his father's house where he is tasted, like where he's been made to eat it, the texture is very weird. It's been interesting for me to watch from the sidelines that they weren't, I didn't give them that food. And so they're not used to that texture. And so it feels very abnormal. Like they, and I think like, that's how we're designed is not to eat those. So it makes sense that they were never conditioned that this is how you're supposed to eat. they, it is foreign to them. And my 10 year old who's on the spectrum, he's actually very compassionate to animals. And he doesn't really understand why people would want to eat them. then, and there are all of these substitutes out ther that tastes so close and he does like the veggie chicken nuggets. And he's like, why would mom, why would anybody kill a chicken when they could just eat this? I'm like, you know, so they are becoming more aware of it, but it is nice that they're very, their pallets were never set to that because my entire pregnancies were all plant -based. they didn't, you know, they say in your third trimester, what the mom eats kind of sets the palette for the kids. And so I wasn't eating any of that stuff then. So I'm grateful. don't think that they'll if they ever do, you know, grow up and decide, I'm going to try eggs or whatever so can fit in. don't think they'll like the the texture. I think it'll feel totally foreign to them, which is great. Yes. 

Glen Merzer: It should feel foreign because it is foreign. Tell us about the Food Save Me Institute and you have some sort of a certificate certification program, right? 

Katherine Lawrence: We do. So as I was teaching nutrition classes, I needed a way to make it sustainable, to have an income for my family. And so I started a sales business, a direct sales business, selling cookware. And through that, I built the business based off of teaching my nutrition classes. Because when I had an income from selling, that meant I could reach more people with my classes and offer my classes for free. And it worked as a business model, but then it kind of exploded. And we ended up with a massive team of over 30 people who were selling, and it ended up being this wildly successful sales business. And it was all based off of teaching free nutrition classes or sometimes low cost to the community. And so we were doing good and helping people. And I think people were drawn to that. over nine years of that, I learned the nuances of how to build a business on nutrition, on serving the community, and teaching people about plant -based diets, which everyone said, by the way, would not be possible in Texas. That's where I am. 

Glen Merzer: So I But you disproved them. was a demand in Texas to learn how to eat without. animals. 

Katherine Lawrence: And I have people in the company saying you will, you will never have a successful business because you're talking about plant -based nutrition. And I thought challenge accepted. I thought if I get to the top of the company, they'll listen to me because people like being successful and earning money. So that's what happened. We were in the, in the top 20 of the company, just about every year that we were in the business it had grown so much. I, I, I had so many people coming saying, well, I want to do what you're doing. And then all these people had become plant based from it. And they saw the business case for teaching plant based, which excited me. So, last year we closed the business just out of nowhere and I wanted to focus on our nonprofit that we had opened the year before it's called food save me Institute. And while I do teach online nutrition classes through the Institute that anybody can watch, we also have a certification program. It's a business builder, certified nutrition instructor. And so we take people who either have a business or want to have a business and we show them how to build the business with nutrition classes. And we provide all of the curriculums and the marketing, but we also give a lot of strategy. a lot of business coaching as far as here's a great way, like here's what works in the business world when you're presenting nutrition classes and here's ways to integrate your product. And we have over 120 instructors now in 13 countries. 

Glen Merzer: You have 120 instructors who have taken your certification program? 

Katherine Lawrence: Yep. And they're teaching. Can you imagine they're teaching plant -based nutrition classes all over the world? have instructors in Malaysia and Australia, of course, a lot in the U S I mean, they're just, have one in Sweden, but it's, had to, I realized that I had to go do it for P I had to show people you can make a great living teaching plant -based nutrition because it is the answer. It is the diet that's going to help heal people. So you're going to be successful with whatever you attach to it. And so some of our instructors sell products in the health and wellness arena, like grounding mattresses, cookware, air filter, water filter, all that, supplements. But some of our instructors have made their businesses with one -on -one coaching. And then some have made theirs by getting grant money and then working in the schools, the school districts with educating teachers and parents. And so we show them, like, this is how you can make a living while doing something really, really impactful and rewarding in the community. But we want you to make a good living. You've got to be good at business because I realized, you know, when I was broke and teaching, it really limited how many people I could help. You know, it really did limit it. It's hard to make a living just teaching nutrition classes. And so that's when I put a business together with it, it just set it on fire. Through having my business, That nine years, I taught 20 ,000 students in person classes. And I think about that ripple effect. They don't all become plant -based, but you plant the seed and then you get emails years later. that's way I think business should be. A business should have a purpose, some good it's doing in the world. And so that's what we teach at Food Saved Me Institute. And we just make it turnkey. It's all there that we even make their social media posts. We give them all those like we've got it all just packaged up and ready to go. 

Glen Merzer: Now, you yourself were a student taking a certification class from T. Colin Campbell program at one point, and you got that certification. How does your program differ from the kind of certification programs that you attended as a student from? Cornell University and Stanford. 

Katherine Lawrence: Well, I just I just want to say I love Dr. Campbell and I love the Cornell program. I also love and also respect Dr. Barnard and Physicians Committee and the Food for Life programs. And this is not competing with them. For one, Cornell is the nutrition science. That's the that's the why. And I actually recommend our instructors. The majority of them have gone through the Cornell program because there's so much nutrition science to learn. I teach them a little bit of it, but mainly I'm teaching the implementation. And going through Dr. Campbell's program is ultimately what led me to this because I was teaching nutrition classes and I learned all this great science from that program so that I could answer questions, but I still didn't know how to put it together as a business. And then I went to the food for life training and they have classes that are ready to go and where Dr. Barnard does the videos. And then they also have a lot of education on nutrition. And so I learned there as well. And I thought, okay, now I've got some classes. I have classes I've developed on my own, but now I've got PCRM classes and I'll teach some of these. But I still didn't know how do I use this for a business? How do I make a living with this? And so then after that, I decided to start this business and all of these lessons I've learned over the last nine or 10 years, that's what's in our program. We teach the basics of nutrition, because I think if you're gonna get up there and teach, it's important, you know, the basics, but we encourage our instructors to go through both of those programs because those are so heavy in nutrition and you get to learn directly from Dr. Barnard and Dr. Campbell. What we do to protect our instructors because not all of our instructors are vegan. We don't require that. I want everybody on the planet teaching plant -based nutrition if they can, right? And so they don't, and a lot of them don't have the education. They're business minded, that's their focus, but they are interested in using nutrition classes to build their business. So what we do, we provide videos. So in those videos, I'm presenting the nutrition science so they can just press play. And their role in class is just making the recipes. And then we teach them how to talk about their product, how to do a follow -up marketing and whatever their… product or services, we teach them how to weave nutrition classes and points or nutrition information into that, into their product demo. So we really, we really just focus on the business side and like how to make this sustainable, all this great information that you can get from other places. How do you, how do you become, how do you build a successful business with it? And so they're both wonderful complimentary programs. we consider ourselves a complementary program to theirs. Yeah. And they're amazing.

Glen Merzer:  So now your business is helping other people build plant -based businesses. 

Katherine Lawrence: Yes.

Glen Merzer:  Except that it's a nonprofit, right? 

Yes. My husband said to me, he's like, you can't even keep up with the requests for nutrition classes, especially with the sex class and the sleep. He's like, you can't teach all these classes. You've got to teach other people how to teach these classes. And so It makes me happy that I'm not teaching today, but somewhere around the world, there's a food, say me instructor telling people about plant based eating. And and I can see how that's so much bigger than me teaching a class, for example. 

Glen Merzer: So the sleep and the sex classes are also part of the classes offered through the Food Save Me Institute. 

Katherine Lawrence: Yes. Yeah. 

Glen Merzer: And that is food food save me Institute. 

Katherine Lawrence: Yes. We focus on more of like the lifestyle stuff. like that, you know, Dr. Barnard's program, Food for Life, they've covered cancer and diabetes and heart disease, and those are all really, really important. And so we've focused on like the eating issues and sleep problems and sex and focus and things like that that are less complicated, I guess, nutritionally, right? And less risk for us. so, yeah, we're moving them all to online and hopefully intercourses can be up by the end of the year, but it's on the way. 

Glen Merzer: So that one isn't online yet. 

Katherine Lawrence: Not yet. Not yet, but it will be. 

Glen Merzer: There will be demand for it. 

Katherine Lawrence: I know. Yeah. What was funny, we had, there was a couple of people in class just taking ferocious notes and I thought, who are they? And I was two of them, they came up to me afterwards, they're urologists. And she said, this is all I hear all day from my patients. She's like, I see 15 men with ED and 15 women with 

Glen Merzer: So is she a female urologist? 

Katherine Lawrence: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Glen Merzer: She's unusual. 

Katherine Lawrence: She said, this is all I see all day. And so So she was taking notes. She's like, this is gold. Like once it's online, I'm just going to send all my patients because, know, they have what is it, 12 minutes with their patients. She said, I can't give them all this. They need to to see it online. So we're working on getting that class there.

Glen Merzer:  Now, is your diet still evolving? Do you find that you still learn new things about nutrition and alter your diet or is it has it been pretty much set for a while?

Katherine Lawrence: no, I think it vacillates actually with the kids, life gets crazy. And sometimes I slide in more to the process things and just convenient stuff and stuff that I know is not ideal for me. Like some of those transition vegetarian foods, but it is growing. I'm currently obsessed with sleep and how my food, when I eat affects it. So that, would say that's been my biggest personal growth in the last year. Stop eating early, not having a lot of protein in the evenings. And I got, well, I have an aura ring that tracks it. So just being a former engineer, like being able to see it graphically, like, wow, I didn't get much rim or deep sleep. I am, I've become obsessed with, with that, with looking at what I eat at what time and how that affects my sleep quality. used to be kind of casual about having red wine in the evenings, you know, maybe twice a week and just on those stressful crazy nights. I saw, I saw what it did to my sleep, Glen. And, so I'm, I'm still, so I'm removed. I've removed that and I'm still. I'm still evolving. think there's so much more research now coming out about gut microbiome, and that's leading me back to my microbiotic origins. And I'm reestablishing my relationship with miso soup and more. 

Glen Merzer: I was hoping you and me. So soup would get back together. 

Katherine Lawrence: yeah. Gosh, it's a miracle. I've turned so many people onto me. So and but, know, it's always a tough discussion about about soy. And I feel like that's my personal mission to tell people about the benefits. Katherine Lawrence: But miso soup is a game changer. It really is. And at my healthiest is when I'm having about half a cup or a cup of miso soup about 30 minutes before every meal. really, it changes. It changes how my body works. It changes how I sleep. I just think it's one of those miracle foods that people underestimate.

Glen Merzer: Well, let me ask you about a few controversial foods. What's your philosophy on oil? 

Katherine Lawrence: So we don't use oil. I follow Dr. Barnard's recommendations with no oil because that's what we teach. So we don't have oil in our house. I get that question in class a lot and people keep telling me they want, you know, we need oil for the Omega 3. So we talk about, you know, have the olive, have the avocado. you know, have the chia and flax and things like that. But personally, we don't use oil. And I, I do, I do eat a lot of nuts, though. I think that that poly and mono unsaturated fats are important. So nuts and seeds. But I notice when we go out to eat, because most of the restaurants have a lot of oil, none of us feel good. Like no one in my family feels it we're not used to it. 

Glen Merzer: Oil destroys restaurants, you know, it's hard to find a restaurant where I want to eat because of the oil. How about coffee? you drink coffee? 

Katherine Lawrence: Okay, so before I answer, just want let everyone know I did not start drinking coffee until I was 38 and I had that last child. And I thought, my God, I want to drink some coffee. I got to have something. That was a very, very challenging surprise, baby. So I just started drinking or no, I was 38. He wasn't born then. I'm sorry. I my mind is not even where I haven't had coffee I started drinking coffee four years ago. So I was 43. So I think that one cup of coffee a day, I feel like it's okay. I have tea and other things. I think what's more dangerous than coffee is what we put in it. I really... 

Glen Merzer: you put anything in your coffee?

Katherine Lawrence:  I do. 

Glen Merzer: What do you put in your coffee?

Katherine Lawrence: I'm gonna get in trouble. So this is like my only splurge. I have, I put, sometimes I put agave, but I'll put like a quarter teaspoon of sugar sometimes. goodness. I know, and some soy milk. I go crazy. It's a little bit of soy milk, a tiny bit. And I actually have the quarter teaspoon out, so that's all that goes in it. And I have, you know, I heard this horrifying statistic the other day, Glen, you might know this, the majority of Americans, their only source of antioxidants is in their coffee. Can you imagine that? I know. So I tell myself that and I'm like, it's okay. I'm going to have 50 or

Glen Merzer:  are a decadent woman. Quarter teaspoon of sugar in your coffee.

Katherine Lawrence:  I do one cup a day. One cup a day. But I know, and there's so much mix. Where are you at on coffee? there's so much mix. 

Glen Merzer: Yeah, I had one cup of coffee in my life. OK, good for I was 17 years old. I was visiting the college that I would attend, New College in Sarasota, Florida. And I never drank coffee growing up because I was a kid. I had milk and cookies. So I was invited to a coffee clutch at the home of one of the professors. And so she said, Glen, do you drink coffee? And she said that in front of all the college students. And I said, I don't know. So she gave me a cup of coffee and it was like drinking mud. was the worst thing I ever had. So I never drank coffee again, but 20 years later, I flew back to Sarasota to speak at the retirement event for my college professor, literature professor. And I met a student walking around campus. And I asked her what she studies and she said international relations with Dr. Bates, who was the one who had given me the coffee. so I said, she's still here. How's she doing? And she said, great. She is a fabulous professor, but she makes the worst frigging coffee. So I view it that she saved me from coffee. She did. 

Katherine Lawrence: Good for you. mean, I grew up with parents drinking like eight cups a day and I knew, I never, I never want to do that. And then then at 43, I was like, I'll try it. I really enjoy it, too. I feel bad. But one cup, I feel like it's not excessive caffeine. I don't know. I tell myself the rest of my day makes up for it. All right. 

Glen Merzer: One more.Diet question, what about dried fruits and fruit juices? You indulge. 

Katherine Lawrence: No, not in fruit juices. 

Glen Merzer: about dried fruits? Raisins? 

Katherine Lawrence: I've just never really been a fan of the texture of those. When I'm traveling, sometimes I might have dried apricots or, when I travel, I bring a little bag of pistachios and the dried Mortmorency cherries, but that's pretty much the only time I have dried fruits. But dried fruit juices, no, we don't, I mean, not dried fruit, fruit juices, we don't keep those in our house. I think they're just so not good for us and full of sugar. And especially the kids, I don't want to set their palate to that sweetness. Like we, we do water. 

Glen Merzer: So if you make desserts, or you like Chef AJ, you sweeten them with dates and bananas?

Katherine Lawrence: Yes, but I don't, also don't make a lot of desserts. I have a chocolate problem. So I, I, I don't, I don't make a lot of desserts in the house. We do, we make the PCRM chocolate mousse, which is tofu with dark chocolate, or you can use cocoa powder in there. So that's like a, a special occasion. We, we just don't do a lot of desserts. also don't we don't usually keep bread in the house. that's kind of a trigger food for, for me at least in my food addiction. and I noticed it like one time we had fruit juice in the house. I think one of the grandparents bought it and it, you know, it disappears in like a day because they can't control themselves on it. So, yeah, I don't know. I'm, I was looking at, your book, own your health and all your recipes. Yeah, this one. And I was like, yes, I'll hold it up. I was looking through this, all the recipes. I'm like, maybe it's time I create a relationship with desserts again. I think it would be important for the boys. Cause I just, I didn't really learn a lot about making healthy desserts outside of like, let's have some fruit and some soy milk. And, and so my way of battling that was just, we just don't make them. I need to learn some new tricks, especially now that the boys are getting older. 

Glen Merzer: OK, well, Chef AJ's got a new dessert book available for a pre sale now called Sweet Indulgence. 

Katherine Lawrence: Yes, I bought it actually. Well, I pre -ordered it last week. I saw it and I thought, OK, OK, I'm going to I'm going to do this. My kids are going to think I'm awesome. 

Glen Merzer: There you go. 

Katherine Lawrence: I'm not going to tell them what's in it. 

Glen Merzer: All right. Well, Katherine, it's been a pleasure getting to know you. 

Katherine Lawrence: Thank you. This has been a lot of fun.

Glen Merzer: Hearing your story again, everyone, you can go to food, save me dot Institute, not dot com dot Institute and learn about Katherine's initiatives. Thank you so much. I really appreciate what you're doing.

Katherine Lawrence:  Well, thank you. And we'll see you soon. 

Glen Merzer: Thanks.